In reading about the Epstein files and the sickening debaucheries and treacheries that swirl within, I find myself thinking — like you, no doubt — about fat old Grover Cleveland.
I think that while some of the attraction to teens is physical, much more is based on power dynamics and the ability to be completely in control of a relationship. This seems to be the big driving concept behind the whole “manosphere” and incel communities, that men should get what they want and not need to get consent or consider their targets as equals with agency. Preying on the young might be seen as easier than earning the respect and consent of those with more options and cognitive development.
It's a spectrum. On one end, there are the men who appear in the Epstein files. Enough said. Next, there are men who dream about it, but just don't have the financial or logistical ability to keep it hushed up. (I.e the guys you're asking about in the poll). After that, there are undoubtedly men who do have those thoughts but at least realize they're wrong and have the decency to either never act on them, or at least do the bare minimum and hold out till she's not a minor anymore. You know- the Grover Cleveland's of the world. On the far end, a group that I hope and pray includes the vast majority of men: the ones who are as sickened by all this as women. I honestly don't know if you were to show the data graphically -clusters of men as you move along the spectrum - what it would look like. I've always been naive in choosing to believe all men- family, friends and acquaintances - in my orbit are morally solid. Don't cheat. Like their partners age appropriate. That stuff. I occasionally have that belief shattered and it's a blow. I'd love to think the graph would show the vast majority of men on that "good" end of the spectrum. I'm going to do my very best to continue to believe it. I didn't respond to the poll because I really don't want to know the answer.
Call me naive (actually, no one has ever done so), but I completely agree with the spectrum concept. When Jimmy Carter (the paragon of propriety!) was interviewed by Playboy he said "I’ve looked on a lot of women with lust. I’ve committed adultery in my heart many times." I was very surprised at how many people were shocked when this was published. But for me the "bad" part of the lust spectrum starts at any intention of doing anything with those underage.
I agree that "thought = sin" is going too far, but it seems to me that there can be a direct progression from "Too bad I can't," to "I wish I could," to "I don't want to get caught," using one's thoughts to deliberately beat down any impulses toward resistance, and then when the opportunity occurs it is welcomed.
Paragraphs 11 and 12 of this complaint filed in federal court that is in the Epstein files contain, among other crimes that Donald Trump allegedly committed, an allegation that he raped a 13-year-old girl and was given a blow job by a 12-year-old and a 13-year-old together. After he ejaculated and zipped up his pants, Trump "physically pushed both minors away while angrily berating them for the 'poor' quality of their sexual performance." https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%209/EFTA00622303.pdf
Berating the minors is Trump to a T and almost proves the truth of the allegation. What other man would do that? His feelings of inadequacy cause him to berate everyone (with the exception of people he's never heard of, like Frederick Douglass, whom he praised).
This is the infamous "Katie Johnson" allegation. The backstory is multiply problematic. Vast quantities of the horrendous allegations in the Epstein files are completely believable. This one is not.
This is very disturbing. Of course Trump and his henchmen will just say it's all made up, and the rabble will believe them. He's doing to the rest of the country what she says he did to her.
I had a boss in the 1980s who preferred "women on the younger side." He referred to them as his "steel-bellied airheads." I found another job as quickly as I could.
Without getting too deep into the psychological weeds of sexual attraction and such "conditions" as ephebophilia or even pedophilia, my take on the wealthy and powerful Epstein "patrons" is that for most, the victims represented forbidden fruit that they perversely viewed as a prerogative of their stations in life and thus "protected" status. What is clear (at least from the public record) is that Epstein almost certainly would have been diagnosed with a formal psychopathology.
Spot on. Plus many of these guys are nerdy and were probably not popular with the girls, so this is a way to make up for those missed opportunities and to impress or fit in with the other rich guys. It reeks of insecurities and neediness.
There are two parts to this, in my view. Are adult men sexually attracted to teenagers? Of course they are. If a person is beyond puberty, has secondary sexual characteristics, etc., why wouldn’t they be? But the second part is acting on those desires. Any reasonably decent human adult wouldn’t actually engage in a sexual relationship with a teenager. It would be exploitation.
In 1870, 21 year old Bertha Honore married 44 year old Chicago real estate businessman and millionaire Potter Palmer. They met when she was 13. His wedding present to her was the Palmer House Hotel.
When Potter died in 1902, he left Bertha an estate worth $8 million. When she died in 1918, she had increased that to $20 million. Bertha Palmer was a socialite, a philanthropist, an advocate for equal rights for women, and a damn good businesswoman. In the last eight years of her life, she was instrumental in the development of Sarasota, FL, eventually owning what would be a quarter of today’s Sarasota County. She also created the brownie, still a staple Palmer House dessert.
I remember more than one occasion sitting in a high school gym for an event in which one of my children was involved, with a silent monologue going on in my head: "Must. Not. Check. Out. High. School. Girls. Oooohlookitthat NO!"
Would wealth and power have loosened my restraint? I don't think so, I sure don't want to think so, but how can I know?
My answer is not listed above, so here it is: I'm a woman, and I honestly do not know. What I do know is that girls have been sexualized for quite some time now. And beyond that, I do think there is a human trait, which most but not all bury deeply, of wanting to hurt young and innocent creatures. I remember learning from a Philippine veterinarian I once worked alongside that there was a word in Tagalog that meant, "It's so cute I want to hurt it." I guess the closest thing in English is something like, "I just want to eat you up." Remember the Anais Nin books that made such a splash a few decades ago? The scenes in those featured quite a few sexual acts with children. And then there's the whole "forbidden fruit" phenomenon and getting turned on by something you're not supposed to do. But after all is said and hopefully not done, the bottom line here is whether or not humans *act* on these hidden desires or not.
Just thinking about the men (paternal side) in my family my answer is “yes”. There is also the time when my BFF and I were spending the day downtown. We were 14, I believe. We had time before we caught the bus home so we decided to relax in the lobby of the hotel near the bus stop. A man came up to us and told us his room number. We beat a hasty exit. Even then we knew that was bad news.
The older man who told us his room number was the clue. We both had been going to Catholic school so it really should have confused us because the school NEVER taught us anything about sex. ;(
Gore Vidal…I believe…wrote a novel in his late career that had as a plot point the notion that the wax First Ladies in their Inaugural gowns at the Smithsonian came to life each evening and chatted among themselves. I remember, without specifics, the exchanges between the two Frances being quite witty,
As for your trepidation over what could be draconian newsroom cuts at the paper formerly known as the WaPo, I understand it may be in the vicinity of 300 souls primarily across the international, local and sports desks and including the business side as well.
December to May relationships appear more common - Bing Crosby married a significantly younger woman; Al Pacino, Alec Baldwin, Clint Eastwood, Harrison Ford, Michael Douglas, Woody Allen - all married younger women. Granted, many of them stayed married, and no longer played the field (that we know of). Consider, how many men date much younger women or leave their older wives for much younger women? IDK. You don’t hear about women trafficking young studs or December (women) to May (men) relationships seem far less common. Google, the expert in all things, said, “A 2023 survey indicates that about half of Americans have been in a relationship with someone at least ten years older/younger than them.”
Don't forget Jerry Lee Lewis and his 13-year-old cousin...
And no one ever mentions Robert De Niro and Tiffany Chen. I know she's not a teenager, but he's 35 years her elder. That's still a little disturbing in my book.
Yeah, I don't get it. Are these guys trying to hold on to their youth by snagging a younger woman? I'm almost 70, and the thought of (1) dating a 30 year old and (2) trying to keep up with her would just wear me out.
I think that while some of the attraction to teens is physical, much more is based on power dynamics and the ability to be completely in control of a relationship. This seems to be the big driving concept behind the whole “manosphere” and incel communities, that men should get what they want and not need to get consent or consider their targets as equals with agency. Preying on the young might be seen as easier than earning the respect and consent of those with more options and cognitive development.
I agree that with sexually mature teenagers, that is the driver. But men having sex with girls undergoing adolescence is a different attraction.
It's a spectrum. On one end, there are the men who appear in the Epstein files. Enough said. Next, there are men who dream about it, but just don't have the financial or logistical ability to keep it hushed up. (I.e the guys you're asking about in the poll). After that, there are undoubtedly men who do have those thoughts but at least realize they're wrong and have the decency to either never act on them, or at least do the bare minimum and hold out till she's not a minor anymore. You know- the Grover Cleveland's of the world. On the far end, a group that I hope and pray includes the vast majority of men: the ones who are as sickened by all this as women. I honestly don't know if you were to show the data graphically -clusters of men as you move along the spectrum - what it would look like. I've always been naive in choosing to believe all men- family, friends and acquaintances - in my orbit are morally solid. Don't cheat. Like their partners age appropriate. That stuff. I occasionally have that belief shattered and it's a blow. I'd love to think the graph would show the vast majority of men on that "good" end of the spectrum. I'm going to do my very best to continue to believe it. I didn't respond to the poll because I really don't want to know the answer.
Call me naive (actually, no one has ever done so), but I completely agree with the spectrum concept. When Jimmy Carter (the paragon of propriety!) was interviewed by Playboy he said "I’ve looked on a lot of women with lust. I’ve committed adultery in my heart many times." I was very surprised at how many people were shocked when this was published. But for me the "bad" part of the lust spectrum starts at any intention of doing anything with those underage.
Thoughts are one thing, actions quite another. I don't buy the "thought = sin" accusation of major religions.
I agree that "thought = sin" is going too far, but it seems to me that there can be a direct progression from "Too bad I can't," to "I wish I could," to "I don't want to get caught," using one's thoughts to deliberately beat down any impulses toward resistance, and then when the opportunity occurs it is welcomed.
Paragraphs 11 and 12 of this complaint filed in federal court that is in the Epstein files contain, among other crimes that Donald Trump allegedly committed, an allegation that he raped a 13-year-old girl and was given a blow job by a 12-year-old and a 13-year-old together. After he ejaculated and zipped up his pants, Trump "physically pushed both minors away while angrily berating them for the 'poor' quality of their sexual performance." https://www.justice.gov/epstein/files/DataSet%209/EFTA00622303.pdf
Berating the minors is Trump to a T and almost proves the truth of the allegation. What other man would do that? His feelings of inadequacy cause him to berate everyone (with the exception of people he's never heard of, like Frederick Douglass, whom he praised).
This is the infamous "Katie Johnson" allegation. The backstory is multiply problematic. Vast quantities of the horrendous allegations in the Epstein files are completely believable. This one is not.
This is very disturbing. Of course Trump and his henchmen will just say it's all made up, and the rabble will believe them. He's doing to the rest of the country what she says he did to her.
Yuck, now I need a shower.
I had a boss in the 1980s who preferred "women on the younger side." He referred to them as his "steel-bellied airheads." I found another job as quickly as I could.
Without getting too deep into the psychological weeds of sexual attraction and such "conditions" as ephebophilia or even pedophilia, my take on the wealthy and powerful Epstein "patrons" is that for most, the victims represented forbidden fruit that they perversely viewed as a prerogative of their stations in life and thus "protected" status. What is clear (at least from the public record) is that Epstein almost certainly would have been diagnosed with a formal psychopathology.
Spot on. Plus many of these guys are nerdy and were probably not popular with the girls, so this is a way to make up for those missed opportunities and to impress or fit in with the other rich guys. It reeks of insecurities and neediness.
There are two parts to this, in my view. Are adult men sexually attracted to teenagers? Of course they are. If a person is beyond puberty, has secondary sexual characteristics, etc., why wouldn’t they be? But the second part is acting on those desires. Any reasonably decent human adult wouldn’t actually engage in a sexual relationship with a teenager. It would be exploitation.
Long ago heard the expression 'to think about it is sick, to act on it is evil'. True in many situations.
I used to tell my mother that any man would do it if he could. And in my experience, that’s completely true.
My wife is three days younger than I am, and we've been married 54 years, so sometimes the age difference works out okay.
Brilliant headline, by the way....
I'm several months younger than my husband (January-September), and we're going on 59 years, but we were 23 and 22 when we married.
Congratulations! That's something to be proud of!
My wife used to always remind me that I was older than her, by three months!
In 1870, 21 year old Bertha Honore married 44 year old Chicago real estate businessman and millionaire Potter Palmer. They met when she was 13. His wedding present to her was the Palmer House Hotel.
When Potter died in 1902, he left Bertha an estate worth $8 million. When she died in 1918, she had increased that to $20 million. Bertha Palmer was a socialite, a philanthropist, an advocate for equal rights for women, and a damn good businesswoman. In the last eight years of her life, she was instrumental in the development of Sarasota, FL, eventually owning what would be a quarter of today’s Sarasota County. She also created the brownie, still a staple Palmer House dessert.
I remember more than one occasion sitting in a high school gym for an event in which one of my children was involved, with a silent monologue going on in my head: "Must. Not. Check. Out. High. School. Girls. Oooohlookitthat NO!"
Would wealth and power have loosened my restraint? I don't think so, I sure don't want to think so, but how can I know?
My answer is not listed above, so here it is: I'm a woman, and I honestly do not know. What I do know is that girls have been sexualized for quite some time now. And beyond that, I do think there is a human trait, which most but not all bury deeply, of wanting to hurt young and innocent creatures. I remember learning from a Philippine veterinarian I once worked alongside that there was a word in Tagalog that meant, "It's so cute I want to hurt it." I guess the closest thing in English is something like, "I just want to eat you up." Remember the Anais Nin books that made such a splash a few decades ago? The scenes in those featured quite a few sexual acts with children. And then there's the whole "forbidden fruit" phenomenon and getting turned on by something you're not supposed to do. But after all is said and hopefully not done, the bottom line here is whether or not humans *act* on these hidden desires or not.
Just thinking about the men (paternal side) in my family my answer is “yes”. There is also the time when my BFF and I were spending the day downtown. We were 14, I believe. We had time before we caught the bus home so we decided to relax in the lobby of the hotel near the bus stop. A man came up to us and told us his room number. We beat a hasty exit. Even then we knew that was bad news.
You dodged a bullet. What were the Red flags for you and your friend? All girls need to know.
The older man who told us his room number was the clue. We both had been going to Catholic school so it really should have confused us because the school NEVER taught us anything about sex. ;(
That flag was pretty red alright. Sex ed or no sex ed.
You are correct. Baby Ruth is the best candy bar by far.
Also makes a good model for a floating turd in a pool, as I recall.
Dammit. I was at work or I'd have made the Caddyshack reference.
In honor of National Create a Vacuum Day, I hereby retract my comment in favor of yours.
My Dad said the wrapper made a great fishing lure. I don't know what he did with the candy. Probably the obvious. 😋
Gore Vidal…I believe…wrote a novel in his late career that had as a plot point the notion that the wax First Ladies in their Inaugural gowns at the Smithsonian came to life each evening and chatted among themselves. I remember, without specifics, the exchanges between the two Frances being quite witty,
That sounds 100% on-brand for Vidal. Now I've gotta hunt that one down...
Looks like it’s called “ The Smithsonian “…duh
Thanks!
As for your trepidation over what could be draconian newsroom cuts at the paper formerly known as the WaPo, I understand it may be in the vicinity of 300 souls primarily across the international, local and sports desks and including the business side as well.
December to May relationships appear more common - Bing Crosby married a significantly younger woman; Al Pacino, Alec Baldwin, Clint Eastwood, Harrison Ford, Michael Douglas, Woody Allen - all married younger women. Granted, many of them stayed married, and no longer played the field (that we know of). Consider, how many men date much younger women or leave their older wives for much younger women? IDK. You don’t hear about women trafficking young studs or December (women) to May (men) relationships seem far less common. Google, the expert in all things, said, “A 2023 survey indicates that about half of Americans have been in a relationship with someone at least ten years older/younger than them.”
Don't forget Jerry Lee Lewis and his 13-year-old cousin...
And no one ever mentions Robert De Niro and Tiffany Chen. I know she's not a teenager, but he's 35 years her elder. That's still a little disturbing in my book.
And also Elvis and 14 year old Priscilla.
Yeah, I don't get it. Are these guys trying to hold on to their youth by snagging a younger woman? I'm almost 70, and the thought of (1) dating a 30 year old and (2) trying to keep up with her would just wear me out.
OK, I think it might be nap time for me.
Such relationships are indeed quite common, but they mostly involve participants that are older than 21.
And did not begin at, you know, birth. That was my point.